Sound Design for Electronic Music with James Patrick - Music Production Podcast #333

James Patrick is a music producer, educator, and author of the new book Sound Design for Electronic Music. James is one of the first Ableton Certified Trainers and he co-founded the electronic music school Slam Academy. 

James and I spoke about his work as an educator, the history and philosophy behind Slam Academy, and his new book Sound Design for Electronic Music. James shared how everything in music can be boiled down to relationships in vibrations. 

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Show Notes:

Thank you for listening. 

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And don’t forget to visit my site https://BrianFunk.com for music production tutorials, videos, and sound packs.

Brian Funk

Episode Transcript:

Brian Funk:

Hello and welcome to the music production podcast. I'm your host Brian Funk. On today's show, I have a very special guest. It's James Patrick. He is the co-founder of Slam Academy, a musician producer. He is one of the very first Ableton certified trainers and he's the author of the new book, Sound Design for Electronic Music, Creating Original Sounds with Ableton Live, Part One Essentials of Analog and FM Synthesis. And that's... probably the thing that got us to get together now, but we've been bouncing in the same community for a while now. And James, it's great to finally get a chance to meet you in sort of person here, but in real life anyway. How are you?

james patrick:

I'm wonderful, Brian. Thank you for having me on your podcast. Um, I've been a fan from afar of all of your work and I'm honored to be here. You know, I'm doing great. I just got off of a three day long birthday party. I just turned 47 years old.

Brian Funk:

Happy

james patrick:

So this

Brian Funk:

birthday.

james patrick:

is the age when you start writing down all the smart things you've learned so they can be left behind. You know,

Brian Funk:

Uh huh.

james patrick:

uh, Yeah, we did a, I live on the Mississippi river and right out in front of my house, there's a big Island that's a nature preserve

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

and we've always wanted to throw a big rager out there. And so we spent the first night, we had everyone camp on our property, probably about 60 people. Maybe we did a barbecue. And then the very next morning we brought eight subwoofers and a bunch of, you know, DJ gear out to this sandy Island on the river. And. brought all of our friends out there one boatload at a time and it was great. And we

Brian Funk:

Bye.

james patrick:

made it back just in time before dark and the thunderstorm and then we proceeded to jam all night long and so I'm feeling really enlightened by all the love of my community here and also been really looking forward to this opportunity to be on this show with you.

Brian Funk:

Wow, what a party, that's awesome.

james patrick:

It was great for sure.

Brian Funk:

Camping, live music, all

james patrick:

All

Brian Funk:

good

james patrick:

the things

Brian Funk:

stuff.

james patrick:

and a proper renegade too, you know, so like everyone, um, there's something extra exciting when you know that you couldn't even get a permit for this if you wanted, you know, there's something

Brian Funk:

Uh huh.

james patrick:

just exciting about it. So

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

yeah, it was really fun. And, um, yeah, just feeling super blessed. So

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

yeah, thanks for the opportunity to be on your show.

Brian Funk:

Yeah, it's awesome to have you and congratulations. Happy birthday. Congratulations on new child and

james patrick:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk:

congratulations on the book. That's

james patrick:

Yeah, thanks.

Brian Funk:

a lot of cool stuff right there.

james patrick:

It is. Um, you know, I have actually four babies. I'm crazy, but my wife and I just love being parents so much that we have these 11 year old twins named Darwin and Roland. And yes, Roland is named after the drum machine, but, um, we waited about eight, nine years, we didn't maybe think we were going to have more. And then my wife in particular really got the itch. And so we had another boy. And so then, you know, of course you have three boys. And so. And we had a girl, so our

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

little three month old, her name is Della Jude, and we are just elated about that. So, it's really, I mean, the book is really cool, but actually, I must say even cooler is having a new little baby girl in my house and my life. So, thanks.

Brian Funk:

Yeah,

james patrick:

Thanks,

Brian Funk:

that's excellent. Very happy for you. Good to hear some good news.

james patrick:

thank you.

Brian Funk:

So where do we start? There's so much, it's been cool seeing your work over the years too. I've been following you and seeing the work that SLAM Academy puts out is really great. When did you start the school, SLAM Academy?

james patrick:

Thanks for asking. Um, so it was about 11 or 12 years ago. I think it was probably like 12 or so that we had the idea. And, um, so the quick backstory is that I was a DJ for 20 years and I didn't really have a like PhD or master's degree in composition or audio or anything like that. Um, I guess I have a bachelor's or whatever, but what I did was in audio production stuff. But. Um, I curated a festival for the university of Minnesota for five or six years, and it was called the spark festival and it was really fun. And it was pretty indie, you know, um, but we had a lot of fun. We met a lot of people, booked a lot of great people, including like Morton subotnic and speedy J and pole. I had a lot of people from Berlin and people who I always really looked up to. Um, and after that kind of, um, dissipated, uh, we ended up the original director of the festival reached out to me and he said, Hey, um, you know, I really miss working with you. I think we should start a school together. And he has two master's degrees and a PhD in all in music stuff. And so I was like, maybe you could be my ticket to like, Fortifying myself in academia, you know, just being

Brian Funk:

Right.

james patrick:

a DJ and just throwing a lot of underground parties and just being a lover of sound. Um, He had this really mature, evolved intellectual and academic side. And so we became this really good, really solid yin and yang together. He's also a certified trainer. His name is Dr. J. Allen. He's a pretty much famous music theory for electronic musicians educator. His music and books and curriculum have been translated to all sorts of languages and shared all around the world. And He actually wrote our first book that SLAM Academy put out. It's called Music Theory for Electronic Music Producers. And it's very great. It's like how to arrange beautiful sounding music without knowing how to play the piano, basically. So that's kind of the backstory of SLAM. So it was about 11 years ago, we kicked it off and we ended up having a really great time. We had a tiny little space downtown, downtown Minneapolis. And we kept it really indie for quite a while and still is indie, but we've changed our business model during COVID. We converted to a kind of subscription membership model. So now people who just want to dip their toe in can, there's like really no commitment, there's no student loans or any financial aid junk like that, which we always hated myself

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

and Dr. J both taught and he still teaches in traditional university settings. I dipped out when we started SLAM. but I had about 10 years of teaching in those environments too, before SLAM. And yeah, we wanted to create a space that was safe and equitable and holistic in its music and audio education that was primarily focused on electronic music that wouldn't put people in debt. You know, so this, the past four years of running the membership model has been really, really fun because we're meeting a lot of new people all the time. And we're able to, it's a small enough company to where we're able to really engage personally with every single member. So the thing that makes slam Academy special is that we offer live instruction. It's not just videos. So for a really affordable rate, not sound like a sales pitch, as cheap as a hundred dollars a month, you can be working directly with certified trainers on your music. And private lessons with certified trainers, for those of you who are listening generally around about a hundred bucks an hour, you know, give or take. Um, so this is an entire month and you get three hours a week of direct contact in our discord server with certified trainers, where they work on your music with you, um, as well as access to all these great courses that we've been developing for many years. So I taught my first sound design class in 2003 at a Institute of audio Institute. Um, and I taught there for 11 years. And then use that knowledge to kind of build the sound design curriculum at slam, which, and while we teach a lot of stuff, you know, we have dubstep classes and techno classes and all that. The six month sound design program at slam is pretty much unparalleled. I would say as far as its depth. And that is the, all that stuff is the makings for the book. So the sound design book is not necessarily a textbook, but could easily be used as a textbook for such a course. So,

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

but yeah, that's the background on slam Academy where an independent organization dedicated to helping our members realize their greatest potential in the sound arts. So we have a DJ program that's very, very popular. Um, it's awesome, but we, that's a feeder program for our Ableton course, which then feeds all of our more advanced classes. So generally the track people go on or else they take the DJ program last. You know, cause you finally have originals. You want to play for people. So, but yeah, that's the background on SLAM. It's Dr. J. Allen and I started the place. It's been really, really fun. You know, after years and years of teaching at formal institutions, there was always this dark cloud over my students' heads, because I knew they had these big student loans they were accruing over time, you know. You go to a place like Full Sail or whatever, that's great, but it's not cheap. And so we really want to be able to reach especially underrepresented communities. people of color, people who don't look like me. And an easier, it makes it a lot easier for us to be able to do that when we're not, you know, charging people like for Mercedes Benz or whatever, you know? So in the end, I wanna know that I did something good for my community and I also of course, wanna be able to maintain and sustain the business model. So we're trying to find that sweet spot in there.

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

But I guess the last thing I'll say about SLAM is it is the, we, make a massive impact on all of our members. I'm really proud of how all the time I hear, man, I didn't know a place like this existed. I'm so glad I'm able to have a dojo, have a practice center where I can be a part of a community of like-minded, kind people who are open and it's an ego-free environment. And on day one, you're either making beats or you're patching together oscillators and filters. And, you know, having breakthroughs all the time and helping people achieve their, their goals, you know, which I think in many ways, people who want to have a creative outlet in their life. Yeah. Maybe you want to be the DJ on stage at the festival, but I'm more in it to help people have a greater sense of meaning in their life, you know, I, Brian, I'm sure you understand that when, you know, this world we live in today is a brutal grind if you don't

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

have. something that you just love that you can escape to, you know, for some people it's baking pies and for other people it's, you know, knitting, you know, grandma's or whatever, but you know, weaving together sound waves is truly therapeutic, uh, when you enter the flow state through having a little bit of formal training or even just a little bit of mentorship or guidance. And so being able to open that door for people is really the essence of what we're trying to do at slam.

Brian Funk:

That's awesome. I mean, community is so important, especially nowadays when you can do all this stuff by yourself and you find yourself in a bedroom or a basement or something, and it's very, very isolated and

james patrick:

So true.

Brian Funk:

music

james patrick:

Yeah.

Brian Funk:

is meant to be shared and played together and it's

james patrick:

Mm-hmm,

Brian Funk:

important

james patrick:

right.

Brian Funk:

that people find those communities and others that they can interact with. And it's one of the reasons I started the podcast too, is just to talk to people because, I mean, in my life I do have supportive people, but how much can I talk about detuning oscillators and compressing a snare drum before I lose

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

them real fast?

james patrick:

Totally. Yeah. You can see them like, okay, what

Brian Funk:

I'm

james patrick:

are

Brian Funk:

like,

james patrick:

we talking

Brian Funk:

okay.

james patrick:

about now? Yeah. Um, after many years of being a DJ, I mean, I think like when I was in my teens and early twenties and I was like learning how to DJ, it was okay to DJ alone, but that actually the shelf life for that kind of thing actually is pretty low, at least for me, cause I feel like I, as soon as you have one person in the room was like great track man or whatever, you know, you're like, Yeah, I wait till you hear the next one, you know, and if there's two or three people in the room who are like great track, that just starts to compound on itself and you know, so that clearly applies to performance, but even on a more supportive community level outside of performance, like when you can know that there's people around you who are not going to judge you,

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

who are going to just be happy that you're their friend and that you're also making stuff. It's just really elevating. You know, yeah. So we live in Minneapolis here, and luckily Prince made it cool to stay here. You know, if you live in any other place other than LA or New York, and you're gonna be like a creative powerhouse, there's this vision that you have to move to LA or New York, but we wanted to provide a community for people in the Twin Cities, and now ultimately on the internet, we have more online members than we do here even now. We wanna... You know, luckily discord and other technologies like that have allowed for us to let's all get together and do a raid or listen to each other's tracks or give each other feedback. And it just kind of, it's kind of, um, it's really empowering.

Brian Funk:

It's

james patrick:

So

Brian Funk:

nice

james patrick:

yeah, it's

Brian Funk:

to

james patrick:

fun. It's inspiring.

Brian Funk:

build communities in smaller places like that compared to the traditional New York, LA type of things because you can be more involved in it.

james patrick:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk:

It's a smaller pond really. You can be

james patrick:

Totally.

Brian Funk:

the bigger fish there.

james patrick:

It's hard to make waves in the, like, you know, if you're a little fish swimming

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

around in the ocean. You

Brian Funk:

Right.

james patrick:

know?

Brian Funk:

Yeah, well, that's cool. That's a great story. And it's really nice that you're also really got that in mind about the cost, you know, with student loans get out of control so fast. And

james patrick:

It's crazy.

Brian Funk:

it's a great

james patrick:

Yeah,

Brian Funk:

thing.

james patrick:

like they never told me that my, you know, I'd be paying $700 a month for 20 years or whatever, you know,

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

and if they said it, I mean, if it was in the fine print, I sure wasn't interested in reading it. I just was like, give me the prize, you know, at the end of all this. I don't

Brian Funk:

Yeah,

james patrick:

really have

Brian Funk:

it's...

james patrick:

necessarily regrets, but it is, that's a heavy... You can't really explain that to a 19-year-old what that really means.

Brian Funk:

No.

james patrick:

Say that to a 40-year-old and they're like, whoa,

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

think about this for a while.

Brian Funk:

Right. Yeah. Because you're not told that side. You just, you assume the job is on the other end of that degree and

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

it's going to pay for it in a couple months.

james patrick:

Yeah,

Brian Funk:

You know, you'll

james patrick:

right.

Brian Funk:

be all good.

james patrick:

Mm-hmm. Kidding.

Brian Funk:

So what brought on the book? Because that's a big undertaking. I know myself. It's a kind of, in some ways, horrible thing to do to yourself to decide to write a book.

james patrick:

Um, I could make a joke and say what really brought on the book is not realizing how much work it is to make a book. But

Brian Funk:

That's kind

james patrick:

yeah,

Brian Funk:

of how I feel

james patrick:

um,

Brian Funk:

too.

james patrick:

by the way, um, you also did a book, right? Um, about

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

nine months ago or a year, maybe 50.

Brian Funk:

Not even, yeah.

james patrick:

Please

Brian Funk:

About

james patrick:

tell, tell I'm flipping the script.

Brian Funk:

six

james patrick:

Tell us about,

Brian Funk:

months or

james patrick:

tell

Brian Funk:

so

james patrick:

me

Brian Funk:

ago.

james patrick:

about your book really quick.

Brian Funk:

Well, that's the five minute music producer. It's

james patrick:

That's what it is, yeah.

Brian Funk:

a daily activity

james patrick:

Cool.

Brian Funk:

for making music. So it was really, it came out of teaching, you know, trying to get ideas, exercises, to get people started, get, get ideas flowing and not just. getting started, but developing and storing ideas, like creating a system. Because something that's really helped me a lot is having these lists of like song titles or things I can try in my songs. And for a long time when I was, especially when I was learning computer-based music and recording, I was learning, you know, all kinds of stuff, mostly on YouTube and tutorials, but I wasn't keeping track of it. So I went through this long period of just learning, learning. And then when I wanted to actually do it, I had to relearn it anyway. So it was kind of became apparent that I needed an activity, a reason to do it, you know,

james patrick:

Sure.

Brian Funk:

to actually learn it. Um, so it kind of started as a way to document all of these things for myself and help other people do that too. Um,

james patrick:

nice

Brian Funk:

just something every day for a couple minutes that'll Either build a skill set, give you new ideas, help you finish songs, or just collect ideas for the next time you're writing music. Those came in really handy for me, especially in collaborative situations, playing in bands when we're jamming, we got this cool idea and it's like, all right, someone has to sing something. What is it going to be about? And to go through the list and be like, oh, that's a cool title. Let's try to

james patrick:

Nice.

Brian Funk:

make that song.

james patrick:

Cool.

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

Yeah. I think, I think these, um, you know, it making music is a practice, you know, and the idea of having something to keep coming back to every day, you know, like your daily meditation, I think that's a format, especially nowadays that is going to be really easily digested and have a long shelf life. You know, a lot of those concepts, I'm sure majority of the book is going to be able to stay relevant, you know, um, cause so many people are looking for that. Like a lot of, so many of my students are like, I sit down and I like find myself doing the same thing over and over, you know what I

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

mean? I think that's why the, the 74 creative strategies that we just all know and love by Dennis DeSantis, um, was so kind of pivotal in that sense. Cause by the end of that, I mean, you're not short on techniques and ideas to change

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

it up. You know?

Brian Funk:

Yeah, that's a great book. I've used it as just reference. I'm in the

james patrick:

all

Brian Funk:

middle.

james patrick:

the time.

Brian Funk:

How do I progress and just pop it open?

james patrick:

So there's three books, folks, if you're watching this. You got Five Minute Music

Brian Funk:

Hehehe

james patrick:

Producer by Brian Funk. You got 74 Creative Strategies by Dennis DeSantis, which is a pivotal book. And then you also have Sound Design for Electronic Music by James Patrick. So I guess let's talk about this thing for a quick sec. I just wanted

Brian Funk:

Please.

james patrick:

to say that As you mentioned before, Brian, this is part one. Um, cause when I originally, it was the pandemic and you know, we're all stuck at home and you asked me how the book came about and, you know, I've been teaching for over 20 years and. As a teacher, you always have these aha moments where you're like, I got to remember that moment, like that person I'm working with now gets it, like whatever just happened in that conversation and then that technique, they are now like, they just leveled up. You can just like watch them level up from a, some sort of discourse or some sort of metaphor maybe. Um, and so, yeah, I just, you know, I've had this feeling like my brain feels so full, you know, 20 years of full-time teaching able, I mean, I've been doing Ableton, I've been working with them since 2006, so that's just many, many years to. The. thinking about ways to explain things, you know, and

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

I just found myself really wanting to just, you know, have a big brain dump. And so it was like, what better time we're all stuck at home. So I've been, I've been thinking about it and writing down tables of contents over and over and kind of rehashing the ideas for several years before COVID, but when the lockdown happened, I was like, this is it. So I sat down and I wrote a book and it turned into two books. Cause when I started doing layout and everything, I realized it was like 500 plus pages. And I was like, I don't really want. a book that's that big. So I broke it up into two different parts. So the first part is, like you said, essentials of analog and digital synthesis. So to talk music shop really quick, for those of you who don't realize, most of the music making technology that we use, at least until like AI started really coming around, was based on analog technology. Some of these dating all the way back to like World War I, you know, like the oscillator, which is electronic sounds like before, you know, I mean, up until now, for the most part, um, is not a music tool at all. It's like an electrician tool. And in fact, alternating current is already coming out of the wall. You know, anytime you plug in two prongs into the wall, there's a vibration at a certain frequency and amplitude. And they just, somebody was a smart enough, the original probably like Ther, Leon Theruman and other people like that to say, Hey, that could be a pitch. And start to You know, transduce that voltage into a audible signal and you know, that can just, that conversation keep going forever, but the book, if you look at the table of contents, the first few chapters are really about the nature of sound talks about physics and vibration and harmonics and ratios and really started to understand like the, the meaning of what we're hearing in our ears, you know, you might perceive something as like a baseline or a set of chords or a drum beat. But really what is that stuff that's coming into our ears and kind of looking at it through a physics lens a little bit, as well as kind of, um, just general math lens, there's a lot of metaphors in there to help people who are new to that stuff understand sound and what it really is. And then we quickly start moving into analog synthesis, which, you know, if you grab a new Ableton Live Pack and you download it and start looking at all the knobs. Chances are a large majority of the words that are trying to help you understand what those knobs do are based on this, like oftentimes hundred year old technology. Well, that is changing all the time more and more often, but especially, you know, there's just a foundation about so much of the art of sound and the language that's used to help create it. Even if you look at these modulars and stuff behind me, All around there, you're going to see frequency, amplitude, timbre, tone, harmonics, you know, these different words that are, that all bring you back to understanding the source. So yeah, once you get through the kind of essence of what sound is, we move through analog, the elements of analog synthesis, which just about anyone can tell you who has experienced, there are really like six primary elements of analog synthesis. There's three audio modules and three modulators. And if you start to understand that simple kind of puzzle piece with these six puzzles or six pieces and what they are, you can start to click them together and make shapes. You know, the audio modules are oscillators, filters, and amplifiers, and the modulators are LFOs, envelopes, and the keyboard or the sequencer. And so you can, you know, those are all pretty simple tools. They're all based on voltage. And if you can start to see how they connect, um, you can start to make shapes, you know, and so. That's kind of the middle part of the book. Just kind of helping say, okay, now that we understand vibration and harmonics and stuff like that, let's use the oscillator to generate a tone, the filter to sculpt those harmonics, the amplifier to turn it up. And then lastly, let's add some movement and modulation and make those variables dance. So we talk about, you know, the main dimensions of sound and how those modules relate to the dimensions, like oscillators, generator, frequency filters, sculpt the timbre. And amplifiers obviously control the amplitude or volume of the signal and kind of really going super elemental and ground up for the middle part of the book and then the whole last part of the book. And I think a lot of more like intermediate or advanced users are going to flip to the back more quickly. The last five chapters are really just dense with techniques like looking at it from a musical lens or sound design for picture. or any sort of experiential audio, you know, by the end you're making all your own drums and percussion sounds and sound effects and transition sounds for your electronic music, whether it's risers or build sounds or drop sounds, bass drops, all that stuff, all just using FM synthesis. So the last few chapters really... harness the Ableton operator and really explore every single aspect of that instrument. I'm not sure if I missed a single element of the operator, but my mission wasn't to teach the operator, it was really to teach how to make great sounds with it. So that's where that book ends. And then with part two, it picks up with sampling and effects processing. And I'm really excited about that because kind of It's a cliffhanger part one, because you get to the end and you realize this is not the end yet,

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

because anyone who's really good with the synthesizer realizes that you can only make it sound so good until you start adding effects. So I think, especially nowadays, a huge part of the sound design puzzle is effects. You know, if you watch great electronic music producers nowadays, oftentimes they're just start with a square wave. It's like beep. And then, you know, a hundred effects devices later, they have this incredible mind blowing sound.

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

Um, I think the art of sound becomes so much more expansive when you start incorporating effects and of course, sampling and resampling. Uh, so that's really, that's part two. So that, that's, you know, that's all back to the daunting task of writing a book. I had the manuscript written down, you know, 500 pages. And I was like, I wrote a book. Hooray. And a word document with 500 pages on it is not a book. A book is something that looks beautiful and has like illustrations. You can't really see this and screen grabs and, you know, is nicely laid out with color coded chapters and the font just right. And I'm not a graphic designer, so, or an illustrator. So that actually was the part that took a lot longer for me.

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

Um, cause it took a team of people. to make it look and read as elegantly and be as beautiful as it is. So, so yeah, that's the part we're working on for part two. And I believe it's gonna go a lot quicker this time because it's a little more color by number because we already learned the hard way we invented the wheel with part one. So that's a little bit about the background of why the book and also what the book. And yeah, anyone that's, you know, feeling compelled to learn more about that, you can pick it up on Amazon. The last thing I'll say about the book and to risk sounding like a plug When I finished the book and finished the layout and illustration and all look beautiful, it was my partner, Dr. J who said, you know what you should really do with this book, you should make a video course and you should give everyone access to slam Academy when they read the book. So

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

on page two of the book, there's a QR code and you get a video tutorial and a downloadable preset for every single exercise in the book. There's over 50. And then you also get access to the slam Academy discord and our online labs and everything. So. That's the real like hidden value in the book is that you can tap into the slam Academy community and it's all included in with the price of the book. So

Brian Funk:

Wow.

james patrick:

you really wanted to go hard with this thing and hopefully attract some new people who always wanted to create original sounds, but felt stuck using presets. So yeah, that's the real kind of hopefully icing on the cake for the book experience that will make it like just for sure hit the target for every single person that picks it up.

Brian Funk:

Oh yeah, I think so, because you're talking about sound. So it's nice to hear it. It's nice to

james patrick:

Right,

Brian Funk:

actually

james patrick:

right,

Brian Funk:

see what's happening instead

james patrick:

totally.

Brian Funk:

of using words all the time.

james patrick:

You know, like

Brian Funk:

Yeah, that's.

james patrick:

Frank Zappa says, dancing about architecture. You guys know

Brian Funk:

Right.

james patrick:

that one, everyone?

Brian Funk:

Yeah. Frightening

james patrick:

Talking

Brian Funk:

about

james patrick:

about

Brian Funk:

music.

james patrick:

music is like dancing about architecture.

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

That's beautiful, so yeah, thanks.

Brian Funk:

Yeah, that's a good bonus there. And it's such good stuff to get a grasp of because it's so foundational to everything. Even if you're not gonna get crazy with synthesis, just understanding how sound works, how you sculpt it, and even when you're EQing an analog instrument, acoustic instrument. That stuff really helps a lot, understanding how your carving sounds with synthesis,

james patrick:

Totally.

Brian Funk:

mixing, putting

james patrick:

Yeah,

Brian Funk:

things

james patrick:

like

Brian Funk:

together.

james patrick:

learning, like acoustics, you know, I, I've embraced a really, um, I love, um, the way the acoustic space behaves. And, um, I achieved that understanding through really understanding harmonics, uh, which came through understanding oscillators and synthesizers. You know, I was a techno DJ and just wanted to like make my own original sounding techno in the nineties. And then fast forward years later, and I'm able through that knowledge to design studio spaces and all sorts of other audio related applications that have nothing to do with the synthesizer. So

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

that's so true.

Brian Funk:

Now, your process was outlining, writing chapters, you said? That was kind of the first step.

james patrick:

Yeah, I had written probably three or four different sequences as far as the table of contents. And, um, I honestly based the original table of contents on the curriculum that I've written and taught for so many years. You know, we start with really low level stuff and then build. And every single week there's a new thing that we build off of last week. And that's how the table of contents flows. Um, of course it ended up being. changed around a handful of times and, you know, with my technical editors making great suggestions. Um, but yeah, that's the table of contents was a rough skeleton, but then ultimately it was just a massive brain dump, you know, I just have towards the end of I'd say, well, before COVID again, that's, you know, such a weird time when everything sees like pre COVID and post, but leading up to

Brian Funk:

us.

james patrick:

COVID in my life as a teacher. So much of my teaching was like watching people's faces light up, you know, and you can still see that through a zoom meeting or a discord channel, but it's kind of not the same as when you're like in the same physical space. And I just felt myself being like, I just have to write all this down. Like one day I will be gone, you know, and I just needed to just lay it all out there and just felt like I needed to kind of like pass this knowledge on and, um, I've got a lot of gratitude to all my mentors and other people in my life who helped me have those aha moments. Um, also my students, you know, as a teacher, I'm sure Brian, you know, that you learn so much when you teach, you know, every time you have a new student who has different experiences and different backgrounds, you start seeing it through their eyes. And I think ultimately that's, that is how I became, how I entered sort of mastery level with this material is teaching it for so many years.

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

Um, but yeah. Well, I knew that there were these topics, you know, probably like say 50 different topics that could all potentially encapsulate their own book. But I just wanted to try and just get those out. You know, I have ideas for third and fourth books that will be more in depth on certain specific topics. But this is kind of just meant to be kind of the big kind of biblical overview of everything you need to know. To at least get started or to refine, fill in any missing gaps. If you're already playing. or decent at it, but really want to enter that kind of mastery

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

level where you can start to really like see the sound and, you know, know it intimately. So yeah, that's, I mean, the process was, you know, table of contents, big brain dump, and then the difficult challenge of kind of starting to plug it all in and remove and delete parts, you know, there's a lot of deleting.

Brian Funk:

Oh yeah, that's most of writing, right?

james patrick:

Mm-hmm, right.

Brian Funk:

Or editing, I guess is just deleting,

james patrick:

Mm-hmm,

Brian Funk:

deleting. Yeah.

james patrick:

totally.

Brian Funk:

I think it's great. Um, because learning that stuff for me, just as a musician, I started on guitar, so I didn't come at it from an electronic perspective, but learning that stuff was so educational and just, I mean, we're, we're mixing sound. We're playing with sound, we're recording sound to understand

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

sound a little bit. is like having a superpower when you actually

james patrick:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk:

start to put the music

james patrick:

Totally.

Brian Funk:

together. It's

james patrick:

It really

Brian Funk:

worthwhile

james patrick:

is.

Brian Funk:

for anybody, even if you're not planning on becoming a synthesis, a synthesis, you know, you

james patrick:

Yeah,

Brian Funk:

can get

james patrick:

it's

Brian Funk:

pretty

james patrick:

funny.

Brian Funk:

far

james patrick:

Like

Brian Funk:

with it.

james patrick:

so many rock and roll people are like approach electronic music and feel like it's so foreign, but all the math of music is based on vibrating strings.

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

You know, like when you play a chord or even a single note and you pluck it nice and hard and you hear all those overtones, I mean, that's the original saw wave. You know, if you like zoom way in on a picked guitar string, it's a saw wave. You know, you're pulling it back and then letting go and it's snapping and then coming back and It doesn't just vibrate the one note you're playing. It plays the octave above it. And then the perfect fifth above that, the harder you strike it or the more distortion you put on it, the more notes there are in that one single tone. And so

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

yeah, there's, there's a lot of transcendental realizations behind the art of sound, you know, and it's, it's cool. So yeah, you play guitar and what other, uh, you're still playing in bands you were saying.

Brian Funk:

Yeah,

james patrick:

Cool.

Brian Funk:

yeah, three piece rock band, guitar, bass, drums,

james patrick:

Awesome.

Brian Funk:

real simple. Um,

james patrick:

Nice.

Brian Funk:

you know, the rock band format is kind of, I see it almost like a template or like a preset now. And, um, when you do music in the computer, whether it's electronic or not, you have all these choices all the time. You've got all these options. What kind of drum? What kind of kick drum? What kind of snare? What kind of hi-hat? Where it's just, we're using the drums that are here.

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

I have this guitar and this amp. Let's go. That's kind of it.

james patrick:

You love that.

Brian Funk:

But it helps you get to work. It helps you get started. But it's all how things work together. And I've noticed more and more even just like the tuning of the drums, like certain drums almost, they're not. They don't work in certain songs and certain tunings. They, the overtones and vibrations of the guitar or the snare can really interfere with stuff. But once you understand that stuff and why that's happening, you can correct those problems so much easier instead of just getting stuck.

james patrick:

Right. I love, I love what you said about seeing the band format as a template. So many people like younger producers, uh, sweat away over like choosing the right snare drum for every track or whatever, you know, it's just like, it's a meme, you know what I mean? It's a million memes,

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

the finding the right snare or getting the mix right or whatever, but I always like to say, and this is, uh, for anyone who's listening out there trying to figure out how to write an album or whatever it's like. When you listen to a Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin or or Jimmy Hendrix record, you know, oftentimes it's the same drum sound on every song. It's the same guitar sound.

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

It's just how they're playing it. And yeah, with electronic music, so much of the story you're telling is the sound itself. But I think a great way to come up with an EP or even an LP is to build a template or like pick a sound, just like a rock band, you know, like John Bonham had his sound, the drummer for Led Zeppelin. And he didn't need to like go buy a new drum kit for every song that would have ruined the band.

Brian Funk:

Right.

james patrick:

Like when you listen to Led Zeppelin, you want that John Bonham drum sound. And so I think it's totally okay when, especially within the, um, kind of framework of a single release to be like, Hey, let's make this release feel cohesive. I'm going to use this certain poly synth for the chords, or I'm going to use this certain kind of vocal effect on my mic. And that's just going to be the sound of the record. And song to song, maybe we'll tell a different story. Maybe one will be in major, one will be in minor. You know, you can,

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

you can regurgitate that thing, you know, and, um, maybe in electronic music, you don't necessarily want to do that for your whole career, but definitely in the context within the constraints of a single release or album, I mean, I think it's important that you do that. Sometimes, you know, I see producers who just build one song at a time and then reinvent the wheel at every song have a really hard time making an album.

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

You know, because in the end they have all these like one-offs and you know, there's, they don't, there's no common thread.

Brian Funk:

Yeah,

james patrick:

Yeah.

Brian Funk:

I like that common thread a lot. I like an

james patrick:

Me

Brian Funk:

album

james patrick:

too.

Brian Funk:

to sound like an album, an

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

experience that kind of puts you through this one journey,

james patrick:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk:

you know.

james patrick:

Many

Brian Funk:

It's...

james patrick:

greats do that, you know, especially in the earlier days of technology, it was like, they had no choice,

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

but with great electronic music, people that we think about like they were kind of down of higher technology. I love, I was thinking about Bjork for instance, you know, like she's moved through so many different sounds, but any one album, you know, she usually picks one producer and they have this certain kind of energy and then they just probably hole up for six months or however, a year or whatever. And just drill down into that sound. So

Brian Funk:

Mm.

james patrick:

the whole album feels like it's came from the same, like part of the universe.

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

And I think that's a, not only inspiring sentiment, but also kind of liberating. You know, you don't need to reinvent the wheel with every track, you

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

know, and you've got a nice, you have a nice ensemble sound, like just when you make the next track, don't hit command N just do a save as and delete all your clips.

Brian Funk:

I do

james patrick:

You

Brian Funk:

that,

james patrick:

know,

Brian Funk:

yeah.

james patrick:

And now your band is ready to go. The garage, the band is in the garage. They've got their tone and now just like change the tempo, change the key. You've got a new song and that's how you make an album. I think at least that's a good, that's one approach.

Brian Funk:

Yep. I know myself, I avoid that work of writing and putting songs together by searching for sounds and hoping they're going to bring me the kind of excitement to actually make the song. It's a, you know, avoidance mechanism a lot of times.

james patrick:

Right. It can be really a buzzkill. I mean, I mean, how many, how, this is a rhetorical question, but like, how many students have you had who can't seem to get a, get the ball through the goalposts metaphorically, because as far as finishing a track, because they. Don't like what they're making, you know, you're like, Oh, but it just doesn't sound cool yet. And they're like, they've got three clips and a loop and it just doesn't sound cool to them. Cause it doesn't sound like, you know, Skrillex or Noisia or whoever their favorite artist is. And I think you just gotta get the ball through the goalpost and like, that's how you find that sound that you're looking for, you know, there's no such thing as the perfect kick or the perfect snare or the perfect bass sound. You know, I think for most great producers, they probably make hundreds of sketches before they're able to really achieve the sound that they're looking for. And the only way that they achieved it was by making those sketches,

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

you know, and Yeah. And not to be too tangential, but that's just another, I'm kind of thinking about people who are listening to this podcast, assuming that sure there are some experts out there, um, but there are probably a lot of intermediate and even beginner level people listening to this podcast and I hope some of these kind of mantras are helpful for you and your path. If you're listening to this and, um, feeling like, I mean, we all the great, I mean, great artists. It's kind of, it can be a tortured life at times, you know, if, uh, not to sound too dark, but nobody can see all of music or any single art form all at once. Like look at the great painters. So many great painters were really, that were really suffering. You know, I think about like Vincent van Gogh. I mean, I don't know how exactly factual this is, but I don't believe he was very successful until it was post humus. You know, he lived a pretty terrible life. He hated his own work. He hated. a lot of things and felt very unaccomplished because he was just, you know, there's this moving target of completion of your work. And I think that demystifying that is. If anyone's ever says that that's simple, they are, they don't fully understand it. You

Brian Funk:

Right.

james patrick:

know, but this is where again, like having a community and having mentors around can be really, really meaningful. I still do this day after 25 years of being full time in this field. Um, look to my mentors when I need inspiration, um, whether it's through a book or through just an email or a phone call, or just getting feedback on a work in progress. And I think that that, yeah, so I just, I hope that some of these insights that, you know, I know Brian has shared millions at this point through this podcast, but I hope I'm able to contribute positively to this library of knowledge and, um, help empower people to see things a little differently and take a load off their shoulders and not feel so much pressure to find the perfect sound or, you know, have this one track you're working on now be so precious that it's going to like make you something or help you realize some higher level of existence. It's really like the process and finding peace in the process that can Again, like, you know, to bring it back to helping people live a more meaningful life. You don't want to be one of those tortured artists. You know what I mean? You don't want to be that person. You want to realize the joy that is available to you every day by oftentimes like taking your ego out of the mix. I think that's part of the successful formula and just realizing that this song I'm making is not perfect, but neither am I. And it's ultimately the process of touching sound and sculpting it, whether it's playing chords or, you know, tweaking the filter or whatever you're doing. That really it's, you got to find, find joy in the process. And then, you know, your days spent on this earth will be hopefully more meaningful. You know, whenever I have new students who are like, I'm going to be that person on stage and until I do, I'm just never going to be feel accomplished. Um, that's tough. You know, that's a, that's really tough when you, when you meet people who are like, I just love sound so much. I just want to push the limits of sound and touch it every day. Occasionally new people come along with that perspective. And those are the people who I think they're 10,000 hours towards mastery. That clock starts spinning. You know what I mean? But when you're constantly feeling like you have not yet achieved a goal,

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

um, it can be, it can be brutal, you know, at times hoping

Brian Funk:

Yeah,

james patrick:

to help. people break through on that.

Brian Funk:

that goalpost often moves too. As you

james patrick:

Totally.

Brian Funk:

get better and better, you, oh, but now I want that, now I want that.

james patrick:

Right. Always. I think

Brian Funk:

It's

james patrick:

always

Brian Funk:

always on

james patrick:

moves.

Brian Funk:

the horizon,

james patrick:

I don't know.

Brian Funk:

yeah.

james patrick:

Show me. I'd love to meet a goalpost that doesn't move. I'd be loving that. But I've never seen one.

Brian Funk:

Yeah, but I think that's beautiful advice that just the practice is the goal, the showing up, the playing with it, the trying things out and the understanding like you're not always going to be at your best, just like you're not in any arena of your life. You're not always at your best creating your finest work, but stuff that you're consistent with your average does progress. your overall scoring percentage goes up, even though you

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

might have a couple weeks where you get nothing, you in the big picture move forward.

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

And it's not precious, like you said, I love saying that, nothing's precious. It's a real good mantra for collaborating so that you don't get into these like fights over how things should go.

james patrick:

surely.

Brian Funk:

But it's also good for your own music. If you make it too precious, You just agonize over everything.

james patrick:

Mm hmm. Totally. Yeah. Part of the magic here's a mantra. This is like mantra, um, trade-offs. Um, part of the magic and finding happiness and making music like traditional music and songs, I think is developing a workflow that allows you to move quickly through the process because the greatest song in the world heard on repeat for three weeks or six months is you're going to be hating that no matter

Brian Funk:

Right.

james patrick:

what, like I always. joke about, uh, remember, um, death punk random access memories were up all night to get lucky. Like everyone loved that song when they first heard it, you know? And then

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

all of a sudden it was on like every single radio station and every single DJ and every single remix. And it wasn't too long before I was like, I'm ready to set that one aside for a little while. And it was a brilliant piece of music, but I mean, any even like classical grades or anything, you know, you listen to them over and over, like Miles Davis kind of blew it. Like, I mean, I've listened to that so many times, you know, there's just So if developing that workflow, that'll help you move quickly because back to my like essence of this to find happiness is being able to still enjoy the music you release,

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

you know, so many people like spend so much time on the mix down. You know, maybe you wrote the song in one or two nights, but once you get to that mix down, baby, you spend three weeks on that thing, you know, if

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

you're not good at mixing down, pay someone to do it because you it's worth it. Not because you don't. Not because it's too hard for you to learn, but because you want to be excited about the song when it gets released. And if you're like learning how to mix, I mean learning how to use an EQ can take hundreds of hours like to really master the EQ and to where you can just like hear a frequency and be like, oh, 3.5K cut it. All right, let's move on. That

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

takes a lot of practice. And if you're learning that as you're going, creating your own art, it's gonna be really hard to love your art by the time it's released. I, you know, as a DJ, um, have the advantage of playing gigs all the time and, or not all the time, but say every couple of weekends. And so this is, I think a great inspiration for being a DJ or for having a method, a platform where you can share your music and maybe as part of the reason why DJing and electronic music production are so intertwined is that. If I know I have a gig next weekend, I'll sit down and make a couple of originals, you know, and I don't worry about them being perfect because I'm going to be mixing them with like hundreds of other songs.

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

But I know I can crank it out. And then what, if I don't spend too long on it and just, you know, follow them, all the workflows I've learned in so many years, I can not, I can write the song basically in one night, produce it in another night or two, mix it in one session. I'm still loving that track by the time I'm playing it for people. So then when I'm like original, and then I bring it in and people are like, Oh my God, this is great. I can also be like, yes, this is great. I'm so

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

excited about this song. And then. people watching you play it or they go like this DJ, this producer loves this track. I can feel that. I love it too. I think, you know, so that's a whole lot of meta talk, but it's really like on a practical level, like refining your workflow. Does, isn't just about like cranking out a bunch of music. It's about figuring out how to not get stuck in any aspect of the process. So you can still love it by the time it's done and you can be excited to share it.

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

You know, whether it's in a DJ set or. on your bandcamp page or Spotify or whatever, like still liking your music is. If you're, you know, nowadays it takes a, you have to wear all the hats. You know, you got to be the songwriter, the producer, the engineer. So you're hearing that song oftentimes way too many times to really enjoy it. You know, it becomes no matter how good it is. So, um, develop those workflows people, you know, if you're out there listening, like find workflows that allow you to move quickly and stay attracted to the process. Like as soon as that natural attraction to the process starts dying off, like that's your muse. Change it up, grab the five minute music producer by Brian and like just blindly open it up to a new page and do whatever that says. Or call up a friend who doesn't know anything about music and have them listen to your work in progress and like watch their face. You know, it can be painful, but it also can give you new ideas, you know, to change it up. Keep moving quickly.

Brian Funk:

Yeah, well, I've abandoned a lot of music that I just really just worked on too long, where

james patrick:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk:

I've come back to it sometimes years later and I'm like, well, why did I stop working on this?

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

And I realized, oh, because look, it was created, you know, in January of this year. And the last time I opened it was February, two years later, because I'd been working on it at home. So

james patrick:

Yeah,

Brian Funk:

just got burnt out on it.

james patrick:

absolutely. I'd say most of my works, you know, call them Ableton sessions or whatever recording sessions. Um, especially from the first, my first 10 years of making music, um, were rungs in a ladder and they, I needed those rungs to get up to the higher floors of the building, you know, but those lower rungs. oftentimes just exists for the experience. And so, man, you want your 10,000 hours to move quickly, like just embrace that. Like another mantra that I love to share with beginner students is like. The next, for the next 30 days, I want you just to like start something new every day or even every couple of days and just realize that it's a throwaway project. You know, this is not about like, cause as soon as you hear that cool baseline, you know, younger producers have this idea, like I can't wait to have this on Spotify or whatever. And you have so much still to learn about efficiently and effectively making like something that really lots of people are going to want to hear. Um, That if you can just embrace the fact that this music is, it's just back to that, um, doing something for the process. If you know, you're never going to release it, just like kick the ball, kick the ball. You got to kick a lot of balls before you're like on the football team as the field goal kicker. So, yep. Uh, so yeah, I think that's another really great little bit of Sage advice is whether it's 30 days or whether it's the next 10 beats you make. You know, and this is not going to be as important for more intermediate or more experienced producers, because maybe you're figuring out how to, what the right moves are in this kind of chess game to get something really beautiful off the ground with your first pass. But. you know, to, to eliminate that getting stale on the shelf feeling where you no longer love the music, no matter how great it is, just make a bunch of stuff that you're never going to share. You know, I think they say, uh, I don't know, like I bake sourdough bread and I had to throw away a lot of loaves before I was like giving them to my grandma for Christmas, you

Brian Funk:

All

james patrick:

know,

Brian Funk:

right.

james patrick:

cause it's, you know, you just got to luckily flower is cheap, you know, tape is cheap, get in there and hit record.

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

and start recording stuff and making stuff and not everything. I mean, most of your early works are just gonna be sitting on a hard drive someday. And occasionally someone comes along where that's not the case, but for most of us, I think there are a lot of rungs on the ladder and that's okay, it's beautiful.

Brian Funk:

I think most of the good music that I've made was when I didn't have that pressure so much, when

james patrick:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk:

it was just, I'm just going to do this. And you know, if it comes out great, it comes out great. If not, it's just, I'm practicing. I'm

james patrick:

Yeah,

Brian Funk:

going

james patrick:

luckily

Brian Funk:

through it.

james patrick:

you're in love with the process.

Brian Funk:

Yeah, just enjoy

james patrick:

One

Brian Funk:

it enough

james patrick:

sec. Right.

Brian Funk:

and have fun with it.

james patrick:

I just wanna say, luckily you're in love with the process. Now, tea for time is quick. I gotta shut my studio door. I'm just gonna

Brian Funk:

Sure.

james patrick:

take one second. Let's have the crew show. Thank you.

Brian Funk:

Of course.

james patrick:

Yeah,

Brian Funk:

I

james patrick:

I'm gonna take...

Brian Funk:

kind of want to pull a string on you because

james patrick:

Cool.

Brian Funk:

we were talking about this a little bit before we hit record, but just the kind of higher power stuff with music and the world of vibrations and energy and just how that all works. It's funny that... we have a term like vibration, or vibe, mood, feeling. And so much of music is, it's just pressure and air and vibrations. It's... in a way I've heard it called a sense of touch or a highly sensitive sense of touch where it's just the air moving those little hairs in your ear and it gets translated.

james patrick:

Mm-hmm.

Brian Funk:

And I know you go into this a little bit in the book too, but I find this fascinating. This is part of where I think it helps me be a little less precious about all this stuff and oh man I kind of make this the best track I've ever made because it's my latest track and because it is this sort of like thing that's larger than us. So I want to pull that string on you

james patrick:

Cool.

Brian Funk:

and hear what you have to say about that a bit.

james patrick:

Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, I do talk about this in the book, but it's funny that the word vibe is just so, it's another meme, and there's a reason why these things become so altruistic or whatever, is because when you, and we've all had this experience where you meet someone, And you can just feel without even necessarily words like, wow, I feel just really like attracted to that person's vibe or even the opposite where you just know that maybe there's a rub going on there that doesn't really work for your vibe, you know? Um, you know, the, it's like, we're on the same frequency. There's a, another common statement in this field and it's like the word frequency and the word vibe. I mean, they're inherent to all the energy that flows in the universe. You know, um, light waves and sound waves, light rays, um, they're all on a spectrum, you know, and You know, we all sound as a universal language and so is, so is light. And, you know, we think of the English language or the German language or, you know, whatever. And those are very, very crude attempts to communicate compared to, um, the energy that flows in between us all the time and in pursuing the art of sound, especially with working with synthesis, I've came to terms with the fact that. I've came to terms with these realizations in particular with studying music, you know, which is, you know, there's 12 notes in an octave. That is also a fairly crude approximation of what is possible with energy. You know, classical musicians pushed those 12 notes as just hard as they could and made a lot of amazing work. But that's just a very small fraction of. the possible emotional quality that sound can have. And this is, I think, part of the reason why people really are gravitated towards synthesis, especially analog synthesis, like early on, especially if you go back to the 50s and 60s, the early revelations that synthesizer developers and pioneers had is there are no steps on an analog oscillator. It doesn't interpolate to different semitones. And... There's more than a hundred notes or sense in between every two notes on a piano, just like there's more feelings than happy or sad, you know? And I think when you're working with diatonic music, uh, like notes on staff paper, you're really restricted to just a certain amount of emotional qualities. It's kind of like the basic color wheel. Uh, but if you want to get into, maybe you're feeling a certain sense of darkness, that's hard to describe with words. or a certain sense of joy, you may need to reach beyond those 12 notes. And of course, you're gonna build off of the fundamental principles of harmony, but when you create a stack of pitches and then start detuning them subtle amounts, you're able to explore the space in between the notes on the piano. And I think that is in many ways, part of the like fuel that powers the vehicle of electronic music. Like when you listen to, you know, take for example in, you know, EDM music, like excision, uh, I'm sure most people are familiar with excision. Um, that sound that happens at the drop that you can't write that down on staff paper because as a sound designer, excision or other artists, you know, who are pushing you outside of the normal traditional music realm, like big time. They're detuning things and using effects in a way that are, that's creating harmonics that are impossible to score. You know, you're take, it requires technology in the long run to be able to bend and create rubs that are, that go beyond the traditional red, yellow and blue of the color wheel, you know, and that spectrum of vibration that is sound or that is light is dense. You know, there are thousands and thousands of variations, even just with one single pitch or two pitches as they relate. And it's kind of amazing, you know, a lot of people don't realize this, but the emotional quality of music and a musical experience is oftentimes determined by the relationship between multiple pitches, especially when they happen at the same time. It's like if you close yourself in the room with someone who you really don't like, it can feel really difficult. And if you lock yourself in the room with someone you're in love with, it can be the most magical experience of your life. And that is on a sound level. Um, what happens when you stack multiple pitches on top of each other and that rub, you know, the space in between like pure chaos and pure, simple harmony. is really so much of the artists, the sound artists palette and what we're working with electronic music nowadays. If you just stick to a major and minor and everything is perfectly tempered, no matter how hard you push your electronic music, it will still in some ways sound like classical music. But when you allow yourself to explore the rub, uh, the more dissonant relationships, just by maybe detuning that oscillator a little bit, or adding some, maybe a little too much unison detune on the center, you know, um, using a delay or a flanger in a way that's kind of adding weird dissonant harmonics, or of course a distortion pedal on your guitar, that's where we're able to take people into new places and help them feel like they relate to this music on a level that's maybe more intimate to their actual human experience than major or minor really could, or diatonic music even could. And so... I don't want to sound like I'm saying don't learn the basic rules of harmony if you're pursuing this, but you want to learn them so you can break them like any proper system. And you know, um. that is hard to avoid when you're working with analog synthesis or when you're working with in an environment where you're free to break rules. You know, you think back to the origins of jazz and blues music. I like the blue note is the flatted fifth, you know, and that's where you, for those who don't understand that, that's like a tritone and every blues song ever pretty much. And I don't want to, I mean, I'm speaking approximately, but utilizes that like blue. flatted note to evoke a feeling of, you know, the kind of deeper, darker sadness that the inventors of blues music felt, you know, Mozart and Beethoven hadn't yet experienced being in a brutalized and enslaved community of people and watching what the inventors of most of the great techniques used in the electronic music studio now have been through. Like. People in Jamaica who invented so much of the way to turn the studio into a musical instrument, which is like the foundations of dubstep and drum and bass and even techno. And the people who invented, you know, blues and jazz playing in multiple keys and moving between keys. And you know, like Miles Davis said, he didn't like playing with formally trained musicians. It was boring. And we wanted to play with people that were even accidentally breaking rules. Cause now we're able to start to get into chartreuse and magenta and different kinds of, you know, color gradients that are going to be a little more in touch actually with the complexity of the human experience. So higher power, you said, um, I don't know, you know, I don't really consider myself a religious person, but I definitely believe in mother nature as the reason why we're able to all be here. You know, the energy that flows through us. at its source really does come from our son. And so maybe I'm some sun worshiping pagan, but, um, that I feel like, you know, when I take that knowledge to the feeling I have when I'm with someone I love, or maybe even don't love, or the way I feel when I get the right stack of harmonics and it creates this feeling that is just really exciting. Um, I feel like that is a way to touch. a higher power, an energy that is around us all the time. So the last thing I'll say about that is I know most people, hopefully everyone listening to this, like not only loves music, of course, but has had the experience of being at a festival or a concert in the kind of sonic sweet spot, which could be a pretty big space, depending on how, what kind of technology you're dealing with the sound system, but sound system culture, for instance, especially like bass music and also house and techno. It's so much driven by the bass and the low end because those vibrations, you know, like a low E 40 Hertz, approximately that's your ears don't even hear that note because that, that vibration is too low and it, it just passes through your physiology and when you hear that bass drop, not to sound cheesy, but, and you look around, you don't have to say anything to the people you're standing with because they can't avoid feeling that feeling that you're feeling, you know, I can't make everyone read my book, but when everyone is standing in front of a really well tuned sound system and the right low note happens, everyone just read your book.

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

You know what I mean? If you're able to be the person who made the track or is even performing the tune. And that is, I think ultimately on a really, really metal level, why so many people keep coming back to music in their life as a source of joy. especially like people who are maybe on the spectrum, dare I say, or like people who have a hard time communicating with words. Um, it's like, oh my God, I'm able to communicate now. You know, some

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

of my favorite students in my whole life are people who are maybe a little shy or who have struggled with, you know, writing a book or diplomacy even, uh, but when you can touch sound and start to communicate through it and have these kinds of awarenesses that Hey, English language goes like this far into the pool of communication. But when you figure out how to work sub bass

Brian Funk:

Thanks for

james patrick:

and

Brian Funk:

watching.

james patrick:

then stack chords on top of it and then detune those chords. I mean, we are now touching God in a way, because we're working with a language that you can't get away from. You know, it, it pulses through our body. It's already inside of us. You know, so many people are like, Oh, the drum beat, like, Oh, that's like the heartbeat, you know? I mean, it's not like.

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

I mean, it's less like, and it more is, you

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

know, it's beautiful stuff.

Brian Funk:

Hmm. Yeah. Very well put too. And I can remember one of those early experiences as a child hearing music. I was in a bad mood, angry about something and heard some a song. And then I wasn't mad anymore. I was different. And it blew my mind at that age. I was like, wow, look at that. Music makes me feel happy. You know, that was my simple understanding, but I really noticed the change and uh... It's really powerful like that. And you're right, it's like the idea that between any two points, there's an infinite number of points. Just

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

you can divide it forever. And there's so much you can do. When I first started playing with computer-based music where everything's perfectly in tune and perfectly in time, I was really surprised that didn't sound so good to me.

james patrick:

You're right.

Brian Funk:

Where I, because growing up, I wish I could play the drums in time. I wish I could sing in pitch. I wish I could play the right notes all the time. And then when you finally could, it was like, well, wait a minute,

james patrick:

Right.

Brian Funk:

something's gone now.

james patrick:

Totally. Yeah. That is so, so true. Like, um, like the first time you ever slapped a swing feel or a groove pool, even just as a little tiny, tiny bit on a drum beat, or like, you know, you listen to a James Brown or a Prince song, you don't realize that tempo is subtly changeling the whole song. And if

Brian Funk:

Yeah.

james patrick:

those people, James Brown or Prince, for example, were to have just made their beats on the grid, their music would not be great,

Brian Funk:

Mm-hmm.

james patrick:

you know? We spend all this time like pursuing perfection and you got to realize, I mean, there's that's a home run of a mantra right there is, uh, the magic is in the, is in the drift and in the slop a little bit. And yeah, when I first started playing drums, my drum instructor was like, sounds good. Try playing it without a swing. And I was like, what do you mean? You know, I didn't really realize I was just holding the sticks and hitting them the way it felt natural. And then I spent like, you know, a couple of years trying to play it straight. And I'm able to now. But when I go back to just playing loose, there's something all of a sudden that just opens up in a way and starts feeling more just like therapeutic and meditative, um, for me personally as the drummer, but I think, yeah, there's, that's those subtle bits of slop are really, you know, whether it's in harmony or whether it's in rhythm or whether it's in, um, You know, even can be in a lot of aspects. Um, I think that's really where things get interesting, you know, like a great example. Um, and this is one of the things I wanted to say when we talked earlier before hitting record is that some of you may or may, a lot of you may realize this already, but, um, you know, like so much of the math of music is in ratios. Like you probably know that an octave When you play like C3 and then C4, those frequencies are a two to one ratio. And when you play C3 or C4 to C5, it's also a two to one. No matter where you are on the piano, when you play two notes that are an octave apart, the two frequencies are a two to one ratio that allows their phase to line up perfectly. And then it creates a consonant sound. And then when you start incorporating other notes, you start incorporating other ratios. So if you go downward through the most consonant intervals of the diatonic music system, Octave is two to one, perfect fifth, which is the next most constant interval is three to two. The next most constant interval is a perfect fourth, which is four to three. The next one is a major third, which is five to four. Next one is a minor third, which is six to five and so on. And the interesting thing about that I wanted to share as we're talking about drift and slop and humanity and swing feel is that it's actually all the same thing. When you play straight 16th notes on a drum kit, um, and everything is on the 16th notes, um, and it's perfect. It's kind of like playing all octaves, like everything lines up perfectly. But then when you throw in a triplet, you know, that to do that, to do that, to do that, to do, you know, the John Bonham drum fill just bring him back or

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

any sort of three over four relationship. That's the three over four ratio, which is the perfect fifth. Try this sometimes people as a fun experiment is make a beat with a triplet over a quarter, over a, um, over a 16th note or even an eighth note, just three over four relationship and record it and then pitch it up like six or eight or 10 octaves can be hard, you know, depending on what kind of technology you're working with, but you will start hearing a perfect fifth and you can do it inversely too. If you have two oscillators that are playing a perfect fifth, say you're playing a C and a G and you slow it. way, way down, but keep their relative relationship the same. You will start hearing a triplet drum beat over a 16th note. And I think that's beautiful kind of transcendental math to look at. But again, like, you know, the perfect fifth is an essential harmony in all music and the triplet or three over four is essential as well and creating a drum beat that's going to be a little more spicy. You know,

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

um, find ways to kind of add more to get off the like really super linear grid and same with swing feel, you know, if you put a little swing feel on that drum beat, and then speed it way up, you know, it's going to sound like a little dissonance or maybe a little more interesting overtones, you know,

Brian Funk:

Hmm.

james patrick:

it won't be like, um, a nursery rhyme or like really basic sounding. It'll have more intrigue and more. Um, immersive or more introspective qualities, it'll be more evocative of complexity. And you know, we all know that the human experience is plenty complex. So, I mean, you wanna communicate to your listeners, you wanna find subtle ways to evoke that kind of more relatable complexity that isn't maybe just like pure chaos, but somewhere the playground is between like pure dissonance and pure consonance and maybe some of these like meta math and kind of. principles will help us have a little more knowledge next time we're exploring sound and ways to evoke interesting results.

Brian Funk:

Hmm. It's a beautiful magic.

james patrick:

Yeah, it is, isn't it?

Brian Funk:

Yeah. Well, we can send people to Amazon, right? That's the main place to get the book.

james patrick:

Yep. Um, the book again, sound design for electronic music. Um, this is part one. I'd love to see you guys check it out. I got some good support, um, from the Ableton community. I've been a certified trainer for a long time and I'm happy to share a lot of the knowledge that I've gained through many years of teaching. Um, the book again is full of workflows. Every single chapter ends with workflows. So it's not only just this like meta higher power talk at all. Every, every lesson ends with a workflow and the workflows are accompanied by videos and downloadable presets. So it's very, very practical as well as very theoretical. And I try to like tie in both sides of your brain, um, for your listening or reading, pardon me, experience. And yeah, definitely. All you have to do is search Ableton sound design on Amazon. It'll be the top find. So it's published by my music school called Slam Academy. We've been around for 11 years. We have memberships that are available for very affordable rates and they're available online or in person, but our private Discord community, as well as all of our weekly online labs and very in-depth sound design mixing and mastering, as well as genre courses like bass music and house and techno and everything are all available all the time. So just go ahead and become a member and jump into the SLAM Academy pool. I'd love to work with you. I will be one of your instructors. So if you wanna work with me or any of my biggest heroes in music, link up with us, pick up that book, or of course anyone can email me anytime, jp at slamacademy.com.

Brian Funk:

Awesome. And I'll put all that in the show notes, too, so people

james patrick:

Cool.

Brian Funk:

can click right on through.

james patrick:

Awesome.

Brian Funk:

Hey, thanks

james patrick:

Great.

Brian Funk:

so much, James.

james patrick:

Yeah, Brian,

Brian Funk:

This is great.

james patrick:

thanks a lot for being with me and thanks for going on this kind of deep dive and I really appreciate your time. And if you have any questions for me or want me to iterate or cut anything out, just let me know, I'm happy to support.

Brian Funk:

Excellent. Great, thank

james patrick:

Cool.

Brian Funk:

you. Thank you to

james patrick:

Yep,

Brian Funk:

everyone that listened.

james patrick:

for sure. Thanks, guys. I'll talk to you later, Brian.

podcastBrian Funkmusic production podcast, James patrick, slam academy